Coping with Grief and Finding Joy with Megan McGavin

Whether it’s aging parents, anticipatory grief, or navigating family dynamics, this episode with Nurse Megan McGavin offers heartfelt advice and practical tips to help you survive—and even find joy—this holiday season.

Transcript

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Hey, it's Stephanie. Thank you so much for tuning in today. I'm super excited because I have Megan McGavin here, who has been a nurse for 20 years, over 20 years. it's the holidays. And a lot of stuff comes up during the holidays. Today, I would love to chat about dealing with aging parents, grief. during the holidays because everything is kind of amplified. So if you could kind of just give us a little history of who you are, a little bio please. Sure. So I have been a nurse for over 20 years and my caregiving started back when I was 10 years old and I was able to help care for my grandmother who... for the last two years of her life. And so from 10 to 12, I became a caregiver then and had a lot of moments that were just incredible with her, but also learned so much from her during that time. And... Fast forward to my early 20s and I became a nurse because that's what I was good at. Caring for people is what I was good at, right? So I became a nurse and began caring for everyone else's family. And I worked in long-term care where I worked in nursing homes, assisted livings, I worked in hospitals, ICUs, all of that. And then... In 2015, I went and became a hospice nurse and worked in the aspect of like an admissions nurse. And so I would go throughout southern Wisconsin, many different communities, different backgrounds, all of that. And I would introduce people to the concept of hospice. and bring their loved ones onto hospice services and then provide a lot of education and support during that. And then I did that until 2020 and then since then I've been working in more of a support role in the background helping strive with quality and making sure that patients are getting the best outcomes and helping our caregivers. do the best that they can with information that I obtain through my work. So I think in regards to grief and looking at aging parents and loved ones, I think there's so much to be said and so much to experience and so much to think about, especially as the holidays approach. And... And people aren't just dealing with this during the holidays. They're dealing with this all the time. And some people are experiencing many different levels of grief. And I'm not quite sure where you want to go with this, but I know that was a little bio and I'm just kind of chatting. Yeah, sure. So I have a friend who husband, they're getting ready to, he has MS. And so they're getting ready to put him in a care facility. And she is thinking about, this is the last Christmas that we have together. As of in our home together. And We're at the age where our parents are going through stuff like that, or they're going to be going through stuff like that. know, parent, mom and dad are, you know, in their 70s and 80s, right? And... What are some of the ways that, because we're all here for the first time. What are some of the ways in your experience that can really help navigate some of those hard feelings? I'm not talking about, well, you could do X, Y, Z physically, but the feelings that come up around that. based on your experience. I think the first thing that I say to people is just take a breath and breathe and remember that that is something that you need to do because so often we just take a breath in and we don't let it go. And then we're also doing that with everything else too. And all the stresses, we're taking that in and we're not letting it go. And Everyone. will not, everyone is going to go through loss at some point or another, whether it be their parents, siblings, pets, friends, anything like that. We're always in a constant state of transition. However, there's a level of, my loved one is not going to be here next Christmas. They may be in a different place, like in a care facility. They may be in a different city, they may be passed on, it just, there's so much transition. So just breathe and remember that the one thing you can do is take care of yourself and that's the only thing you can control and everything else will happen as it needs to and it's really hard especially for me I like to control things I like to like not control in the bad sense but control of, okay I know I can make my coffee, get my coffee pot prepared the night before so that I have coffee the next day, you know, stuff like that. Or I can brush my teeth today or you know different things like that. Focus on those little things that maybe just coming natural or just you take for granted to understand, okay, just by taking care of that little thing, I can take care of the next bigger thing. When you're dealing with somebody moving to like a care facility, there's so many different emotions that come through. You could be dealing with, What if they don't take care of them the way that I want them to be cared for? What if they don't like the person? What if they are gonna get abused? What if they don't get their meds when they're in pain? All of that. I mean, there's so many what if questions. Or what if they hate the food? And you know, all kinds of stuff. There's so many different things. And I think it's important to... pause, take a breath and say, okay, is the what if monster going to wreak havoc today or can I just handle one of those issues? Like, can we answer one of those questions? But knowing that somebody is like going to pass or they're going to be somewhere else next year, it's an anticipatory grief. So you're anticipating the grief that's going to be occurring. and that can, that's where you have the what-off monster and you know you're like constantly wondering what if this happens what if that happens and that causes more anxiety than anything. And I think it's just really important to step back and just live in the moment and enjoy and verbalize what's important to you verbalize what how that person makes you feel make sure that they understand how important they are to you all of that. It can be tricky because sometimes there's a lot of baggage and a lot of history so people can't have that conversation or they can't feel like they can communicate what they want to say or there's a lot of anger and hurt and they're like I want to say XYZ to somebody because they really hurt me but I don't want to hurt them now because they're really suffering so it's like you sacrifice your healing for their for what you think they need at this time so it's it's so hard it's so hard but really just enjoy the moment and I think that's to every aspect. mean, we should be living every day. Like, what if we don't see this person tomorrow? What if we don't, you know, get to have another opportunity to tell them how much we love them? We know things happen all the time. know, tragedies happen. But knowing that something is going to happen to somebody can be very freeing or it can be very paralyzing. So you mentioned a specific type of grief and what was it called? Anticipatory grief. And what are other types of grief? So there's complex grief. I don't know like the scientific name. the nursing point of view. like complex grief is where like I would label as you have a very strange relationship with somebody but you still love them and But you may be experiencing a level of relief once they're gone. So that would be something very complex because it's not cut and dry. feel guilty? You could feel guilt, yeah. Or like people who are in a car accident, you have survivor's guilt. Or where one person survives and another dies. Or somebody becomes paralyzed and the people that were unaffected, have that another level. It means very complicated. And guilt and grief and in all sorts of feelings surrounding grief is not it's not the same for every single person. It depends on what their life experiences are, what their coping mechanisms are, all of that. a lot of people, you know It depends on how they were raised and how generationally, how they were taught to handle grief. Some people turn to alcohol, especially at this time, or drugs, or anything to suppress those feelings that they're having because they don't know how to handle it. Or those... the drugs and alcohol make them feel better and they just want to feel relief in some aspect and so there's so many different coping mechanisms. I've done lots of different, like I used to eat, I used to just swallow everything down and I was sad, let's have some chocolate. you're happy? Okay, let's go have some ice cream. Or, you know, all of that, we're having a celebration, let's all eat. know, so every emotion that I was experiencing, I was eating and turning to that. And that did not support me, but it was also just what I knew how, that's how I knew how to survive. And was that based on, do you think, how you were raised? Yeah, I think so. I think a lot of it is. Yeah. And I think part of it was the protection. mechanism as well to just, you know, kind of build up my own armor. But, you know, there's so the anticipatory grief, the complex grief, guilt, it's so much. And then, you know, they say, people go in and out of the different stages of grief. And it's very fluid and you can have all those. I can't rattle them off right now, but, you know, denial, anger. acceptance, couple others, a shock. And it's okay to however you feel that day. Give yourself permission to feel however you need to. you know, how you started this conversation was take a breath, right? Yeah. And all of the grief, the alcohol, food, drugs, anger. if you just took a breath, that's not exhaling, right? That's like, you're holding on for dear life, white-knuckling it, I think they call it. so yeah, it's super important, especially this time of year, when you're dealing with all these emotions, to find that peace, right? So for me, I get my peace through meditation, even if it's 15 minutes. I get it through walks in the woods. I get it through, I just started doing this little tiny habit of writing five things that I'm excited about for the next day. I do it right before I go to bed. And it helps me sleep because even though I'm not dealing with grief of Nobody thank God nobody's sick in my family and nobody's died this year. I still have What did you call it the what-if monsters? Yeah They like to come out and about 2 a.m. So if I do this little thing of writing five things I'm excited about for tomorrow those what-if monsters stay away. Mm-hmm Yeah, and that's not my term. I heard it from a woman who was sharing a book that was called that. And I don't know who the author is, but it's called The What If Monster. think, or yeah, I think that's what it's called. I'm not sure. But I loved it. And I'm like, that is so true. That happens all the time. And I get in that cycle. And I think what you, when you had pointed out, yeah, you should take a breath, but we have to release that breath at some point too. So when you're releasing that breath, make sure you're releasing everything that you're holding onto. And so, and give it back. mean, you can give it back to the earth, give it back to God, whoever you need to, just let it go. And you don't have to hold on to that. You can choose to hold on to it, but you don't have to. And that is something you definitely have control over as to whether or not you let it go. And sometimes we just need to think about, okay, what can I do that I have control over? Or like your friend who has a mess, they lose the ability to move in so many different aspects, or they have days where they're really good and days that are really bad, and sometimes their body just doesn't want to listen to them. And so what can they control? You know, I can let something go. or can choose to hold on to something. so when mechanically they can't do something, at least they can choose, hey, I can control this aspect. Which is feelings, emotions, mental thoughts. And if you can't, there are people that can help you. Oh yeah, let's talk about that. Yeah, yeah. So like I definitely am a firm believer in in therapy, like I don't even know how many hours of therapy I've had in my life, lots. But it's been something like as a nurse, in order to get through really difficult situations, they teach you how to shut everything down so that you can perform X, Y, Z. And that's important. That helps save people's lives, but then it strips part of you. And so you're left to pick up the pieces of yourself afterwards without being taught how to heal yourself. after experiencing these horrendous things because when there's a traumatic event with somebody whether it be a car accident, an injury or or somebody getting cancer and dying or going through difficult treatments, it's not just the people who are experiencing those traumas or those injuries and events. It's the people that are caring for them as well. And what I learned as a nurse is that you are not allowed to feel, you are not allowed to get close to anybody it was frowned upon or you just have to shut it down and move on to the next person. And so, so many times those caregivers go home and they don't know how to process any of that grief. They don't know how to process any of that trauma. And so it then cycles down to their loved ones that are around them or... creates unhealthy coping mechanisms. So I learned, like I just kept eating and eating and eating and shoving it down because I didn't know what else to do. And I learned, hey, just if you're not happy, you're not set, you know, something's wrong, something's good, just eat, eat, eat. And so that's what I did. And then I'm like, okay, I need to get some therapy for this. So I started, it was like, I'm a big onion. I just kept peeling layer after layer after layer. And then I personally did really well with brain spotting. And so I, it's very hard. It's not easy, but I've done brain spotting too. So let's talk about that. I know we're kind of going down a rabbit hole, but brain spotting was the number one thing that helped me because talk therapy, because I'm a people pleaser, I was talking to please my therapist. So brain spotting isn't talking. at all. No, one thing that I'm just... I just realized is that there are still things that I haven't told my therapist and I haven't seen her for a couple months because I'm in just a transition period where I needed to work on some things alone before I could work on things with her again. But I was too ashamed of what I was feeling and I had to process it and I still haven't talked to her about some things because I didn't know how to. And I feel completely safe. have an excellent therapeutic relationship with her, but I am still holding on to those old programs of shame. But with brain spotting, it really helps heal trauma. trauma isn't just a physical thing. It is an emotional thing that imprints in your brain. And your brain stores it in little drawers, little files, little boxes, whatever you want to call it. It stores it in different places of the brain. it kind of puts a locked door on there or like it kind of seals it off. And so with the brain spotting, you're finding where in your brain that is stored and then you're opening it up and processing it and healing it. And it's just, it's not just a one-time event. Like you're, dealing with it, but then for days on, you're still handling it. and still managing and sifting through it. And then you may have to do it again with the brain spotting. you can, once you've learned brain spotting, you can do it on your own. But for me, I prefer to have my therapist there just because... That's just, I get too distracted otherwise. I know that this is my place to go and do that. But I've been able to do it virtually as well as in person with her. And I have done it on my own too, but I feel more comfortable when I do the brain spotting with her. But I still get the relief and benefits when I've done it on my own. Yeah, so it's been a few years since I've done it, but this is what I remember about it. I remember crying a lot, first off, but that's a... It was process of understanding exactly what my trauma was and what I do when I am triggered in trauma. So do I dissociate? What do I do? And then, so that was a few sessions. And then once we did it, I had headphones on, music was going from side to side and it was very relaxing. And then she would just take a little pointer and Let's say I wanted to work on something like a car accident or my first marriage. Which was a car accident. She would move the little, this like baton around until... I really felt the emotion, that emotion that I needed to expel. And then you just stare at that spot and you just allow your mind and your thoughts and your feelings to just open. And yes, that's exactly how that happened. And I have a feeling we probably went to the same person. don't know. She sounds pretty similar, but it's also just a trained modality too. Was it Judy? God, yeah. She is amazing. I know, I really want to go back to her. Yes, and I will be going back to her. I've gone to her a couple different scenarios. Oh, we have the same thing. I know. Yeah, yeah, and she's been instrumental, like... She's amazing and yes, I know I'm the one that did the work, but she helped me figure out how to do the work. To hold the space of just holding that spot. I mean, you have to think a normal person would get really bored with that, but she was in it with you. Yeah, definitely. So much to share about Judy. should bring her on someday. If she would want to, I She's incredible. She does volunteer work for first responders and everything too. Oh my gosh. Yeah. But we digress. So all those years of... not handling grief and stress and anxiety and fear and all of that help in a way led me to like be 370 pounds. I could not even bend over and tie my shoes. I was having lots of different physical problems. and I just was the unhealthiest and nursing was killing me. Yeah, where you're supposed to be helping other people. I can't even help myself. How am I supposed to care for others? And that's an important part of grief too, would think, and dealing with holiday stress and death. we have to. We have to take care of ourselves. Yeah, yeah. And so often I would be in the people's homes with hospice and I'm like, you got to take care of yourself. And, and it's okay to, to say I need to rest. there are so many times where people are trying to do it on their own. and trying to do everything and they don't want to burden anybody so they don't ask for help but then there are people who are just eager to help because they want to do something to make you feel better because they see the stress that you're in they see the anxiety they see how much you're doing and they want to help but they don't know how so they're waiting for you to ask for help but it's like this whole like Cycle and so then you're just wear yourself down to nothing and then you're like, I don't know what to do and it's like, okay Let's just step back and it's time for you to be this person's loved one. Not their caregiver. Yeah And I think too, when we're in that space of complete vulnerability and fragility and barely hanging on, we put up this big armor. Yeah. And we think that that's going to somehow save us. Yep. Or just everything will bounce off. eventually. Someday I'll be able to handle this, but right now I'm not going to. Yeah. So I'm just going to put this armor up. Yeah. Let it reflect. So I think it's really important to do the self care, do what you need to so that you can be that person's loved one and so that you can experience the love that they have for you and vice versa and just feel that and feel all the feels like they say. But it's also important to be able to be vulnerable with them too and appreciate all the memories you can make. One thing I want to touch on is there's a lot of people who have loved ones who have dementia. And the holidays are very difficult because it can be very confusing for the person with the dementia who may not remember who the loved ones are. too much stimulation for them. so having that family event, having a big group of people together is really disruptive to them. And it's in that becomes disruptive to everyone that's there as well. But and disruptive in the part where people are really hurting like the person with dementia, it's just too much stimulation. They don't know what to do. They feel like they're disappointing someone if they don't give the right answer or they may not understand or they may have shame if their body does something that they may not want or they can't find the bathroom or they can't find the right chair to sit on or they trip on a rug and they fall. You know, there's so many different things that may cause just a lot of hardships for everyone that's there. so, and with dementia, it's a very long, prolonged grief process because despite that person being there, you don't know how they will be every single day. They don't know how they're gonna be every single day. Eventually, they don't understand that they don't remember. And they may not recognize anybody because they may be remembering people in their young state, but they don't recognize you as who you are today. And a lot of people grow with them. So they're like, I've been with this person for decades and they don't see me anymore. And that can be really hard. grief can last for years because their body is physically well but their mind is is not where it used to be and that's really really hard so that's really important times to recognize like, okay, how can I best support this person and support myself at the same time? Is it just a one-on-one visit on Christmas day or is it, or are they capable of getting together with the whole family? You know, really analyzing where is this person at today and not holding any expectations other than what may be appropriate at that time. And, And it can be really hard for children who don't understand or it could be the children that are the ones that can really reach out and touch the person with dementia because that person is seeing their grandkids or great grandkids and thinking it's their children because they look just like their kids. You know, it's so many different scenarios, but it's just you just take it how the day presents itself. And usually doing something at the beginning of the day is much better than the end of the day. just because of sundowning and as they get more tired and more stimulation throughout the day, it gets really exhaustive and they're not the best version of themselves for the day, at the end of the day. As you're talking about this, what brings up for me is anxiety. Everybody. You know, because as caregivers, We do want to care for others and we want to put our loved ones needs first. But if you took all that advice that you just gave, do things in the morning, assess how you're feeling, bring some kids along, all of these things for family events that maybe you're stressed about or all of that. We should be doing that for ourselves too. Yeah, I heard some friends chatting before Thanksgiving and it was so important of, you know, like, spend all this time before the holidays cleaning and preparing and getting everything perfect. But then we sit there and apologize for how our house looks or how this is or how that is. No. You don't have to do anything but just show up in life. And the people who truly matter, the people who truly love you just want you to be there. However you can show up. And of course they want you to be the healthiest version of yourself. They want you to be the best version of yourself because they love you and they want you to be happy. So when it comes to the holidays and just being present and showing up, it's okay to show up as you are. Yes. You don't have to have the outfit, perfect house, perfect ham. No. No, you don't need to have any of that. Like I don't remember what so-and-so wore last year. I don't know what I got for Christmas 10 years ago. You know, like you don't have to have the perfect anything. There is no version of perfect or what you think is perfect. Just show up and be there and listen and love and, and take care of yourself. If it's, if it means not showing up because you need to go take a walk in nature, then do that and then take, do, do what brings you the joy and the sustenance. to move on to the next day. if it means like, there are some days I have horrible anxiety and the thought of being around 20 people is excruciating. I'm very much an introvert. I can function as an extrovert, but it is exhausting. And by the end of the day, I just need to collapse into bed because I'm exhausted. But if I can't show up and be around all people, then hey, it's just really too much for me. Can we just have coffee or can we just get together and spend some time one-on-one? Because that may be what is how I'm able to show up as the best version of myself for that person. And how, in your opinion, how do you even know sometimes, because we're talking about caring for others and assessing other people's needs, how do we assess our own needs? That takes practice. And I'm still working on it. My favorite thing that Judy would always say to me is be curious about that. Oh yes. One of her manners is be curious about how you feel. And so like I used to hate journaling and I don't journal every day, but I used to hate journaling. But one of the things that I found is so effective for me is if I write it down, I never go back and read it, but just expelling it and putting a voice to it brings me peace. And sometimes I don't even know what I'm writing about. I'm just, it's like word vomit all over the page, but it is helpful. For me, it's best in the morning. If I'm really having a hard time focusing or getting started, I just open up my notebook and write it down. And I sometimes get prompts, sometimes don't. It just depends. Yeah. I... But I write it down and that's helpful for me and it helps me navigate how I'm feeling and assessing where I'm at for the day and what I need to focus on for the day. There have been times when at the end of the day, doing which I've done the what am I excited about tomorrow, but also what am I grateful for that happened today? I think the level of gratitude when you are finding that gratitude and finding those good happy feels, more of that happens. It's just, you know, the law of attraction. But You just gotta figure out what works for you and if you try something and it doesn't work, try the next thing and you keep trying until you find something that works. And then when it works, yeah, it may not work all the time, but try. Keep trying. And build a habit and build a practice around it so that you... It becomes second nature. It becomes the, okay, I'm going to just brush my teeth and I'm going to write my journal. Yeah. So I was listening to this podcast actually this morning and he's like, basically you just, whatever your brain's telling you to do, do the opposite. So if your brain's like, you don't have to do that. Yeah, you probably should. You should stay in bed. You know, you should have that cupcake. You do the opposite because your brain's, It's seeking comfort. It's trying to get the next dopamine fix. it's not to be trusted. No, not at all. It's like, mm-hmm. then, yeah. So I had to laugh at that because it's so true. Because I think I mentioned to you earlier that I didn't do the five things I'm excited about. then at 2 AM, I'm thinking about worst case scenarios. Had I just been like, nope, I'm doing this thing right now, then I would have. sleep. So I love that you're on this healing journey. Do you have any books that you read that you recommend? I know this isn't the usual. Yeah, so I... I am somebody that is, I know this can be up for discussion, but I believe that audiobooks are real books. literacy councils and everything, they say this is a modality of reading. And I have ADHD and I have, there was a, in my 20s, aside from my textbooks, when I was in nursing school, I didn't read for about a decade because I couldn't. would, and I had undiagnosed ADHD all these years. because I was people pleasing and trying to hide all my symptoms. Masking. Yeah, was masking everything. But I couldn't read a novel because I would sit there and have to reread and reread and reread. It's not a sign of that I'm stupid or anything like that. It's just that I couldn't do it. And so I could read a two, three minute article, but that's it. But often I had had to reread the page. I just wouldn't read. But once I discovered audiobooks and back when I was doing hospice before I had access to Libby and and audible and and All of the things yeah, where all those digital books are now. It's just you stream it on your phone I was playing CDs and of books and I went from not reading a book for over a decade to I think last year I read over a hundred. Oh Yeah, and I love But I also because I need to be doing multiple things at once in order to be focused and so I'm listening to books while I'm working or what while I'm doing Anything while I'm driving and any of it so I'm listening to books listening to podcasts because I'm also listening I love podcasts and you know, I love I love that so and I just rediscovered listening to music too. So I wasn't able to listen to music for quite some time and that's a whole nother story. yeah, so I'm some of the things that really helped me get focused were something I don't remember but it was like the 5 a.m club where yeah getting up at like 5 a.m is it atomic habits maybe or I don't know but I know I read atomic habits and that was really good but then there is a book called 5 a.m Something else that is atomic habits. Yeah, one of the two but I loved it. So really becoming the 5 a.m. Club and then also one of while I was working like I'm still my weight loss journey, but when I started I was listening to losing 100 pounds with Korean crab treat. And she was just the southern lady that cost all the time and just helped me reframe how I thought about food. And so listening to her and listening. to hurt people and everything. I mean, that really helped kind of reframe how I ate and reframing food for my body, but then doing all the therapy with Judy and everything was like the thing that really helped. And yeah, I also found a great group of people for... like a gym where I didn't feel like I was being judged at all and they celebrated the fact that I could bend over. You know, when I was able to tie my shoe on my own, they celebrated with me. And all these super in-fit people who are just like incredible athletes and they're like, you're an athlete too, Megan. I'm like, what? And they're like, yeah, you are. Thank you. So like being able to jump for the first time in I don't know how long or lifting heavy stuff and like it was incredible. I mean it was just incredible and I'm still friends with many of these people and you know just... I don't remember just one book. was just so many, so many books. Yeah, the little pieces. Yeah. And then also finding a really good novel that just, like, I enjoy listening to fantasy novels because they just take me, like, for me, when I read, it's a whole movie playing out. And I thought that's just normal, right? But I guess not everyone. has that happen? Like I have a whole movie, a whole list of characters that I'm envisioning, everything. And some people just read the words and they're just words. And I'm like, huh, what is that? But I have a whole movie playing out. It's great. And so yeah, it's a distraction, but it's also it's helping me focus on everything else that I need to focus on at the same time. So it's pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what meditation does for me. Guided meditation is like I'll go on a whole other. journey and then you just bring it right back down to here and it's like my gosh that was a lovely lovely little pause yeah yeah so well i know for me for the holidays after my last divorce the christmas day was like i didn't know how i was gonna feel you know and that was a form of grief for sure obviously nobody again very lucky nobody's sick or dying but Because I didn't know how I was going to feel, I had the whole day just cleared for just my son and I. it was the most loveliest day waking up in my own space, doing my own thing for the first time ever. You know, because I went from my parents' house to my first marriage to my second marriage, basically. Very little time where I lived on my own and had my own space to create, to cry, to dance, to love, to whatever. And I took a picture of myself, of the two of us sitting with the cat and the dog. And I look at that picture every day and I smile because even through that process of not having, you know, there was seven kids total. We had a big house. We did breakfast. All the things that I had done previously on Christmas that I was now missing out on, I had found myself. Through that process of grief and sadness. So there is a purpose for grief. There is a purpose for sadness But the purpose is to move through it. It's not to to sit in it But the only way you can move through it is if you again, we'll tie it right back to the beginning Is that breath work that presence that taking care of yourself? They say what like oxygen mask on first? Yeah, take care of yourself before you take care of others Put your oxygen mask on before you put your child's on. Yes and it's okay to heal even if the person next to you or with you does not. Yeah, you're only responsible for yourself. Yep, healing is so rewarding and one of the things I remember during the brain spotting is imagine, yeah, are, how you're feeling right now. And it may feel like when you're processing that grief, that processing, that trauma, and it hurts so much, can, if you look at the flip side and once you heal that and you move through it, it can feel just as immense, but in a good way. You can feel the joy surrounding that just as much as you feel that grief. And so that was like really, may not be verbalizing it correctly, but it was really eye-opening to think, wow, I can feel joy that immensely. Like, I couldn't fathom it. And then when I find my... able to. was just the tears flowed because I didn't know how to express how much gratitude I had for that joy. And for yourself. Yes. And so if you get caught up in like, just can't fathom it feeling any worse. Yeah, acknowledge that. But then have hope that, wow, I as awful as this may feel right now, I can feel joy and love and just as intensely. Yeah. And so going through that grief and wading through it. Yeah. You have to. You have to in order to get through the other side. But it's also your choice. Yeah. If you choose, you can choose to either stay in that grief and not move forward and not find that joy or you can wade through it. You get to have that choice. Yeah. But I also think, I just lost it though. okay, so yeah, we this season, if we are experiencing those feelings and we're not processing them because we think, okay, someday I'm not going to feel this way. So I'm just going to power through. I spent a lot of time doing that. I think my advice for people who are experiencing pain, sadness, grief is again, just to allow, allow it. Take a minute and How would it feel if somebody were helping you right now? Right? Like what if you did reach out to somebody and said hey, I'm having a bad day You know, I don't think I can do this today You know a friend Even a journal a dog. Mm-hmm, but just like saying that out loud Okay, this today sucks. Like I'm not feeling good today. Because once you open that up, that is that release. And then it's like, oh, okay. So I'm feeling this way. I know in my head that I can make a cup of coffee. I can put water on my face. I can go for a walk. can switch this. But until you acknowledge those feelings, you can't switch anything. No, not at all. And it's important. Like I think about... that vulnerability and how brave it is of yourself to think that like to even acknowledge, Hey, I need help. Right. It's such a vulnerable place, but it makes you stronger to acknowledge, Hey, I can't do this on my own and I need support. Even if it's from a pet or nature or, a healer that you go to, I mean, or a friend or family, anybody, anything. You just have to find what works for you. Being vulnerable to yourself is scary, but it makes you so much stronger on the opposite side. Yeah. And I think just saying it out loud is an energy release in itself. It sure is. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap things up? You can get through it. You can get through all of this. you can get through the holidays. You can get through any hard day. You can get through any hard transition. You've got this. love that. Yeah, you got this. Yeah. And you got this. Yes. All right. Thank you so much. Thanks.