Sales, Self Worth, and Raising Your Rates with Anna Hockett

What if sales was never about selling — and always about knowing yourself first?

Anna Hockett went from a broadcast journalism degree to turning down an anchor job, to closing million-dollar software deals, to Director of Sales & Account Services at Nei-Turner Media Group — home of Brava, Persona, and Chicago Style Weddings. In this episode of Unwritten, she and Steph get into the part of sales nobody puts in the training manual: the fear underneath it.

Steph opens up about why she kept her photography rates low for years — the not-good-enough story, the fear that clients would be mad at her, the comparison trap — and how resentment and burnout finally forced the change. Anna shares the boardroom moment where she asked a furious CEO the question no one else would ask, why she used a fake name on cold calls to get over the hump, and what she learned about walking away from a client who isn't the right fit.

Together they land on something bigger than sales: your biggest blocks become your building blocks. The most troubled vines make the best wine. And the validation you've been waiting for was never coming from out there anyway.

Whether you're a business owner, a creative pricing your work, or someone who flinches at the word "sales" — this one's about confidence, connection, and finally knowing what you bring to the table.

Listen to Anna's Podcast Here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-anna-angle/id1830016709

Link to Brava magazine: https://bravamagazine.com/

Topics: sales confidence, raising your prices, imposter syndrome, knowing your worth, women in business, entrepreneurship, self-worth, mindset, personal branding, storytelling, marketing.

Tags: sales confidence, how to raise your rates, knowing your worth, women in business, imposter syndrome, sales mindset, pricing your services, entrepreneur mindset, self-worth, personal branding, storytelling marketing, Brava Magazine, Persona Magazine, Madison Wisconsin business, Unwritten with Steph

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Stephanie, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Unwritten. I'm super excited to have Anna Hockett here today.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Steph.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

I'm super excited too. So just a little background of Anna. She is director of sales and account services at Nye Turner Media Group. What that means is she works for Brava, which is also a persona magazine for Madison, Amowaki, and the Chicago style weddings. So you have your hands full.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Yes, lots of lots of good stuff happening, lots of businesses to help and awareness to grow for lots of brands.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Yeah, that's awesome. And you've been in sales for a really long time, right?

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Well, I don't know really long, but yeah. Most of my all of my career I have been in sales, correct.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Yeah. Okay. And before this, you were in tech sales, if I'm not mistaken.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Yeah. So is it tech and software?

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Yeah. How did you what did you want to be when you grew up? And let's start there.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Well, I thought I was gonna be in the movies because I loved movies and I wanted to be a movie star. And then I found out that not very many people end up being movie stars. And then, but I still love movies. So I wanted to, I was gonna go to school. Well, I went to school to be a director. Um, and then I ended up graduating with a degree in broadcast journalism instead and was gonna be a news anchor and worked at NBC here in Madison for three months and got a sales job offer, um, as well as an offer to be a night side reporter and weekend anchor at NBC here in Madison. And I went with the sales job. It was a bit more money, and by bit I mean a lot. And um, they had given me a Platinum American Express card and said, Hey, can you take these guys golfing? And I said, wait a minute. So do I want to work 80 hours a week or do I want to take some guys golfing with an expense account? And uh, and I really liked what I was doing at the time too. So yeah, I ended up jumping into sales and moving down to Chicago, and that's that's where it all started.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

That's amazing. Okay, well, I have some questions for you about sales and marketing because in a few weeks I'm hosting a workshop, a business workshop, and you are one of the speakers.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Thank you so much for the opportunity. I'm very excited.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

I'm so pumped just to be in a room with amazing women, and you know, I'm only doing it really personally for myself. I'm joking, but um, it's gonna be a great event. And and okay, but sales and marketing have always been hard for me, uh. And they're hard for a lot of people. So, and did you feel like when you first got into sales, you had to be a specific way to be successful?

SPEAKER_01 2:52

So I think when the term sales, it can be it can feel kind of like scummy, like salespeople, like uh used car salesman, people throw that around all the time. Or um, you know, like the guy I'm dating will say, like, that's why you're a good salesperson, and I could never be in sales. And I'm like, I guess for me, it was never about selling, it's always been about helping. And I know that sounds super cheesy, but it's always been, and I'll talk a little bit about this in the presentation um or the conversation that in in the in at your seminar, but uh if I don't feel like whatever I'm providing truly helps solve a problem or solve something, it for me it doesn't really work. Like I tried one time to sell something that I wasn't that into, and um and I I maybe I didn't totally understand it or I didn't, and it was that was the one and only sales job that I I really didn't have success with because I I I wasn't aligned with what was going on. And I I feel like I was kind of going through the motions and like doing this pitch, and that just for me, even though like I wanted to be an actress and I love reading a script and maybe portraying something like that on a on a stage or on a screen, um, when it comes to sales, I I can't fake it. So um believing or trying to find a way to align with a product or service is kind of the way that I looked at it from the beginning. And to to I'll I'll tell you what I sold at the beginning. I was selling um, I worked for a third-party administrator, a TPA of flexible benefits, Cobra administration, and um wellness plans, which back then new one no one even knew what a wellness plan. This was, you know, 19 years, 19 years ago. Um, yeah. And no one really knew what some of these things were. And that could be the most boring thing is kind of like employee benefits, and especially to a 21-year-old girl that like gets out of college and has this broadcast journalism degree. But I found that we were able to really help these companies figure out ways to help their employees more. And I I was bought in and it never really felt like I was selling. It was like truly like we can help you. This is how I know that we can help you, and this is why we're better at the at helping you than some of the other folks out there. And it was, it was a great introduction into sales and and and kind of what I ended up making a career for myself.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Did you feel like when you first started that there were pieces of you that maybe you felt didn't exist in the sales world? Like, did you have any sort of blocks around, oh, am I not good enough? Should I have more, should I have gone to school for this? There's all these things that we tend to put in front of success when it, especially when it comes to sales and dealing with people and asking for money. Did you have any of those?

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Um, a little bit at the beginning for sure. Um, two things throughout my whole, not my whole career, but um different parts of my career. One, when I was younger, I felt like not necessarily, you know, I feel like the term imposter syndrome gets thrown around a lot, but I don't think it was so much that it was more I had to make sure that because of my age, um, and some also because of my personality a little bit. I'm I'm I this is who I am. I'm a pretty bubbly like person. And I think that sometimes that can be misconstrued as you're kind of dumb or kind of like it, it wasn't I I needed to make sure that I was taken seriously, especially at the first few years of my career. And um, and uh there was two two big pieces to that. One was kind of faking it till I made it as far as and not being fake, but knowing that, okay, I still know more about this than whoever I'm trying to sell it to or provide this for, and they do need my help. Um, and then this the other part of it was really acting like a professional, because if as a 22-year-old you make some mistakes that that older people might be be able to get away with, you just couldn't because more eyes were on you, as far as I was concerned. And what what I really realized, especially traveling a bunch and going to conferences and trade shows and speaking at different events and things like that, um, just making sure that I really dialed in some of the professionalism because of maybe some preconceived notions that someone already had about me. And then later in my career, especially when I got really into more tech and software, um, you know, sometimes you're selling to people that have owned companies and they're multi-million dollar companies, a lot of men, a lot more men than women, especially in tech and and software. And um, you know, having to have the mindset when you walk into a room or walk into a boardroom or are about to have the final conversation with a CFO and a CEO, and these CFOs have their PhDs in finance. And I'm gonna be the first one to tell you that that's not me. And, you know, you you know me pretty well now. And that's not, you know, I probably don't present myself like that. But understanding that at the end of the day, I still, even though they might have more degrees than me and have a lot more experience, I still knew more about the specific solution that I was providing than then they other otherwise they wouldn't have the problem that they were in and they wouldn't need a solution in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

I think that's super important to remind everybody that's listening is that we all go through that, right? Whether it's sitting in a boardroom with a bunch of older men that are more educated, you know, all of these things that we think um are actually kind of put in our way. For me, I struggled with raising my rates in photography for so long because I was afraid that if I did that, that everyone would be mad at me. So I kept my rates really low and I got really resentful, very burnt out, very bitter. So I bought a class on sales. And basically I, I mean, they gave me a coach. We did um and it was four photographers and we had accountability groups. It was amazing, but I really just paid for the script that said that said how much my like it uh when I could go through like my rates pricing of photography and all that stuff, because I needed that help to get over that this is where I'm at, this is where I want to be, but I'm like I'm too afraid to do it.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

So I what do you think the fear was rooted in? Why do you think that that was so hard? Because you know you're so talented. So and that's where it's for me. It's like from looking out, I'm like, oh my god, her work is so incredible. How could people like how could she think that she couldn't raise her rate? So, like, what do you think the fear was?

SPEAKER_00 10:18

The fear was that well, that I wasn't good enough, first off. That the second one was that my clients would be mad at me.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

And the third one was that there's a lot of photographers out there, so why would somebody pay me more than this person or that person?

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Um, so it was all really um a self-esteem problem and a comparison problem.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

And um So what did the what are the um the the text that you purchased, what did that say?

SPEAKER_00 11:01

I wish I still had it.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

I do too. It was like it was just like framing it like in a way that you thought felt comfortable saying to your clients or to or how how did you do it?

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yeah, I mean it it actually is like the stupidest thing ever, but it it worked. And then it I I also had a I had a whole booklet that I made myself of like different questions, like when somebody opposes, like what do you say back? All these things because I I needed like the structure.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

I thought I needed the structure. Yeah. But what I really needed was, you know, to let go of like all the bullshit stuff I was telling myself.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

So I think that that's so consistent with like a a lot of things in life, but but like just because we're on the sales talk, like I think that um anytime we we have a vision of what what we are or not, I think the first step to getting past that is a strategy of okay, so you you had your process of, okay, I'm gonna send this email. These are my responses to these objections, and this is this is how I'm gonna do it, until you got comfortable enough to be like, yeah, I am good enough to ask for this. So I can use my own words and I don't need these scripts to do so. I think that that's I think that that's really common. And I think that, I mean, in one of one of my sales jobs, so this was probably three years after I moved down to Chicago, I went to work for another company and it was very, it was, it wasn't entry level, but I I had to make a lot more cold calls on the phone than I was used to. And I remember, and it was again, I was working for a product and service that I still to this day think is one of the one of the best solutions out there for what it, what it's it's claiming to do. And um, and I remember on these cold calls, it was like embarrassment. I I don't know, I just didn't want to screw it up because it was, and it was the first time I was in Chicago and I wasn't working from home. I was going into an office for this job, and there was all these people around. And I would use a different name. I would say that this is Rachel calling from whatever instead of saying Anna. And for some reason, that was like the one piece that got me over the hump to like, but then once I got comfortable doing it and like I got, and then I got really comfortable doing it, I didn't even think about it anymore. And of course it's gonna be Anna because I wanted to start building the relationship. But when I was just doing a lot of cold calling, it helped me. There's there, I think there's tons of different strategies to like get you over the hump while you figure out, okay, how am I actually gonna do this and what's gonna, what's gonna work for me moving forward because this is something that I know I need to do, I want to do, or I have to do for my business, for myself, for um, for what what you know, whatever it is, for my company.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's like that was part of the missing gap too, where it's like, I I think for a long time, my own personal experience was I was waiting for somebody to validate me and tell me I was good enough, you know. And um, so of course in my mind now that those thought processes just keep reflecting back to you that you aren't good enough, you know, until you really realize that that um the validation you're seeking has to come from within. So there was a big shift that had to occur that happened after the coaching, after the classes. Um and I think that's you know, when we talk about this like workshop that I'm putting on, I think that's like that's what I want people to walk away with, you know, is knowing that they have it in them. They don't have to purchase anything. I mean, they have to come to the class if they want, but like it's really a in here thing.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

I think that you're tapping into something that, and that's one of the reasons when we talked about me speaking at the conference, something that I think is so I think it it's it's more and more rare. And it and it's weird because it's as I get older and I'm I'm in awe of so many people that I meet. I told you, like I'm so inspired by you. And I just um yeah, I I keep meeting people that I'm just I'm continued to be just so in awe of them. And then I find out that they have stories similar to yours where they're like, well, I just didn't think I was good enough, or I didn't think why does anyone want to hear what I have to say? Why would anyone want to hear my story? And it's like um tapping into, you know, the the light that is inside of us or the things that make us special, and then like riding those waves to me, that's that's like what that's what life is all about. And it's certainly, yeah, I mean, in sales, you're gonna get no's. Like I wish that I, you know, I think Brava is the best publication that is is out there. It's for women, by women. I think men should read. I think everybody should read this publication. It's wonderful. But like not everyone has the budget to advertise with us. Not everyone has the time or effort to partner with us people, or you know, maybe they just don't want to and they want to, you know, do try something else. And that's totally, totally fine. But it's not because I'm they don't like me or I'm not doing my job. It's because it's because it's just not the right fit right now. And in sales, it's really easy to get down on yourself though and feel like they said, here's another no. Like I'm not, I'm not good at this. This isn't what I should be doing. And I I think it's very rare that that's the case. I think it's it's about figuring out deep down, okay, why, why am I doing this though? And then sticking with it and being persistent and persevering with whether it's messaging like you had to do to raise your pricing, or maybe with me, it's um, it could be messaging also, or it could be just like catching people at the right time or making sure that I am articulating the value of what we are offering and why that could be different than some of these other things that they've tried, even though, again, most people want to grow their business, most people want to um grow more awareness about their brand or their product or their service or their restaurant or, you know, whatever it might be. So it's it's just figuring out, okay, how how can I, how can I articulate our value? And if now's not the right time, totally cool. Still want you in my network, still want to, you know, let you know I'm gonna keep coming to your restaurant. That's no biggie. But um, but yeah, I think that I think that tapping into though, like what can you really offer and what do you bring to the table is such a huge part of it. And I wish I could shake people sometimes and be like, you have so many gifts that I think everyone around here wishes that they had and you just have it. So like use that and let's let's ride that, ride that wave as as as long as we can.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

I love that. And that that kind of transitions into my next question about when you were going into those sales rooms, what did you dig down into that made you feel that you could offer the right thing? Like what gave you the confidence, even though you had the product, right? The product we all have, but there had to be something in there that you thought could be brought to the table that they hadn't seen before or that they might say yes, or was it just a crapshoot? Like, well, I'm just gonna go in and be myself.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

No, I think there, there's there's I'll I'll give you three things. Like, okay, so one thing is I think being prepared no matter what is always gonna help in situations where you don't where you feel like, wow, I'm I'm about to walk into something that that is over my head or it's a little, it's really intimidating. I think if you're prepared and you know, you know your shit, you know whether it's a product, service, or um something that you you are providing, I think really harnessing that and and understanding and understanding what whatever that might be, that's definitely gonna help number one. Like I think when I talk to people about public speaking, I think that the biggest thing, you know, other than these other tips and tricks, like is is if if you're prepared, that's that's kind of like the base number one. Number two, I think is really understanding where your strengths are as a person. So for me, in a high, high, like $1.3 million software sale that's gonna be a three-year contract that they can't get out of um and unless something really goes wrong. I think for me, I knew that I didn't know. I don't know how to make software. I don't know how to code. I don't know how to, I don't even know some of the times, especially some of the products that I and services that I sold, how to exactly where to click at the right time. But I knew that that solution would solve their problem. And I knew that I could explain that to them. Like I was talking to my aunt or my mother-in-law. Like I knew that I, that that was something that was different about me. Um, very similar to like a doctor that might know that they have a great bedside manner because I knew that I could get, I could, they could try, I I could tell them that they could trust me and I wasn't bullshitting them. Like I they truly could. And I would be there for them if something did start to go wrong with the product and I would get them in touch with the person that could fix it. And I really leaned into that because I and I I've been said it probably almost every big meeting that I had. Um, I I would say, like, you can tell if just by looking and listening to me, I'm not the person that builds this stuff. But I have these people next to me right here because they are and they know how to talk to your IT people and your tech people who are gonna support this and also believe in it. Otherwise, we wouldn't be sitting here right now. Um, so I think just kind of leading with that type of authenticity and like realness really helped me specifically in the software tech realm. Um, and then the third thing I'll say is being confident enough to be okay that if someone says no. And what I mean by that is a meeting that I will never forget for the rest of my life. It was with the largest client that I've still to this day ever sold, ever will probably be be with. And something had gone pretty wrong in in as far as customer service was concerned. So I went in there with my CEO. We sat down with the owner, CEO, CFO, all these, you know, big shots at this, this, this company in Michigan. Um, great company, by the way. And they we let them talk for about an hour and a half about all the ways that we screwed up. Um, and I said to them, and I was I was a little bit worried that my CEO was going to be frustrated, but I just I knew that a question had to be answered before we went forward. And that was, is this fixable in your mind or are we done here? And the CEO looks at me and he goes, and it was silent, it was completely silent. And the CEO of the other company who was right across from me at the boardroom table looks at me and he just said, You got some balls, kid. And I just said, I don't want to waste your time if you are going to be mad at us for these mistakes and they're valid mistakes. We clearly like really messed up here. So what is this fixable? And he said, Yes, it is. And right then my CEO like elbowed my chair and we went through an hour of, okay, what does what does good look like to them and what would need to happen? We walked out of the meeting, my CEO gave me, he's a brand new CEO at the time, gave me a hug and he said, I couldn't believe you said that. And I said, Well, what what would be the point of of faking it at this point? I'm not just gonna like, like, yes, we messed up, we're gonna own that, but we're also gonna tell you all the things that we've already put in place and the things that we're gonna put in place to make sure that doesn't happen again. So I think that having the courage to to like to say yes, we we there there was a mistake or this isn't going to be always perfect. Very similar to a dating relationship or a a romantic relationship. This isn't always going to be perfect, but this is what needs to happen moving forward to to to make things better. Can we get past it? And I think that um I think that that that helped me a ton knowing that knowing that you can ask the hard questions and if the answer is no, the world is going to keep going on and you're going to find the next big client and it's going to be fine. But I think that um you know digging deep in in in those moments is is can be pretty powerful too.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

I think that's so true. And digging deep is also for instance I've had some clients I I went through a transition this last year and I'm super excited about it but letting go of clients that don't serve me. But I also have this knee jerk reaction to please everybody and you know make it happen. And what I've learned over just recently even just yesterday or Monda Friday was I had a client reached out to me a lot and asking a lot asking a lot of me and I finally just said I just don't think we're the right fit. I don't think my offering that I have is enough for you and she turned around and she was like no we want you like she was just seeing like how much how much she could get and I in my head I'm like oh I could give her this and this and then I'm like no wait a minute like this isn't let's just be real here.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Like if I'm stuck doing this thing on a Saturday like what is it that I can provide her and well and Stephanie don't you think it it devalues your offering if you and that's what's that's something that's really interesting and we'll definitely talk about this a little bit is like in today's landscape of how people spend money and expect a certain amount of um service or you know they they see something and they can go to all these different places. We have so many opportunities go to all these different places online to try to get a cheap cheaper price or and and maybe the quality's not there but it still looks the same and like we live in a very unique world where um now compared to even 10 years ago where we have so there's so much information out there and we have so many opportunities and people are I don't know if I'd say smarter consumers but definitely more um savvy consumers. I I don't know what the right word is to where they're asking a lot of questions where they're trying to get the most that they possibly can out of any investment that they're making. So there it's there is a fine line of like you of course you want to help and you want to do what you are meant to do, which is you know it provide incredible services as an incredible photographer. But like you don't want to devalue your offering or what you can do because that's not going to serve you. And it's not going to be a fruitful relationship for either one of you because you're going to resent them and then they're going to be pissed because you're you know you so I think that I think that really holding on to um you know kind of like you said what you bring to the table and what your differentiators are, what make you you and why your pricing or like whatever it is is is the the the cost that it is and and holding on to that and not devaluing it no matter what. I think that that's that's just I I think that that's that's really I think that's really being tapped into emotional intelligence and also having confidence in what and what you you really are offering and bring to the table.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Yeah yeah for sure and it's just that honesty as well like this is who I am I am my service I am my product I know it better than anybody else which brings me to the next part is that this like sometimes I well I think all the time is that our biggest blocks end up being our best assets when it comes to sales because it's a journey a sales is a journey and connection is a journey and the more that we connect with ourselves the better we're going to be able to connect with other people which is why you are a great salesperson because I met you and within two seconds we were best friends.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

So like but like I think I won't I think I also won on that one. So I'm very grateful for it.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Yeah but it is it's like it's like these blocks we can either put them and and make a barrier between us and what we want in life in sales and whatever or we can work with those blocks and create it as a stepping stone and I need to put that in a Hallmark magazine.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

So we take the blocks and we make stepping stones instead and like let's throw that into some sort of AI model and get them that's a great use of AI like get them to build like show you an image of that the greatest block end up being that your your bit your best stepping stones. Your biggest stepping stones yeah and I I mean honestly I think that that's it's true. I mean you know I love wine it's true of wine sometimes they they say I mean one of the reasons I love champagne so much and I I I fell in love with with wine is like is they they talk about how sometimes the most troubled vines end up making the absolute best wine and that's like to me that's and again I'm a wine lover so maybe I lean into this a little too much but that's like what life is all about is like some of the worst shit I've ever gone through it's that's the only reason I'm here right now. And it's I'm not saying like I want to go through more crap, right? Like I'm I'm saying that like sometimes if we can if we can allow those blocks to teach us something or um further our journey in a positive way and you you just never know what is possible. And it's it can that's that's why life is such a beautiful thing and using having the mindset to use those blocks and not just keep them as blocks but use them to to see really really what your potential is or where where you can go is is just manifest.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Yeah um I don't even know what to say about that.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

I feel like I can just my life should drop drop the mic and see at Devil's Lake in a couple weeks yeah um let me see if there's any other question. I think that the other thing that I was going to mention about sales is you know again people like it can be like a dirty word in like sales you're a salesman or a sales you're in sales or whatever. But again I think that like ever almost all of us are in some type of sales like parents are constant constantly trying to sell their kids on whatever idea or whatever you know how how they're raising them. Teachers are selling kids or you know their students on ideas. My brother is a basketball coach he's a college basketball coach and what he does for a living is very similar to what I do for a living. He can't wait to show the the female basketball players that he has recruiting trips with how great University of Wisconsin Stevens Point is. I can't wait to show people how great Brava magazine is and Persona magazine and nonprofits, charities, foundations but I can't help but want to give money or time to the organizations where I can align with what they're doing or I want to be a part of what they're doing. Or, you know, so I think that there's so many pieces of it. I think knowing and having the confidence to know it's not going to be right and or the right time for every single person that you're talking to or every single person that that comes to you. But knowing that like you're going to be the right fit for a lot of others.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

I've had a lot of real uh experience in relationships and I have a friend that's had a lot of experience in different jobs and they are so similar to I mean it's it's just it's the same thing. It's like if if it's not the right fit, move on. It's a connection and it can be great or it can just be uh okay well maybe maybe next year or the year exactly but either way right now we're connecting and I'm just grateful. Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

So but I do think and I will say this just to circle back on everything that we've kind of talked about it does still come back to knowing yourself and knowing what you bring to the table at the at like first and foremost because it's really really hard whether it's in a relationship or in a a sales cycle whether you're selling something that's two million dollars a year or something that's you know a 10 bucks like what whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Yeah I mean I I was just thinking in my head is it easier to sell something for $10 or a million dollars and that's my question for you.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

It it truly all depends it depends on what it is and if it's worth it and how big of a problem it solves or or how much it can potentially add. Like I guess in software we always talk about getting to the pain like getting to the root of the the the pain that is causing whatever is missing is causing the business or the the company or the CEO or the owner. And if you can get to the pain and and build enough trust to where they tell you we are hemorrhaging money because it's taking us this much time a month to do to settle our books or this much time a month to do XYZ or we're losing tons of potential clients because the checkout process on our website is taking so long and we know that because people are complaining about it, but we don't know how to fix it in a timely fashion and then we don't know how to track or you know it depends on what the pain is but if if if someone tells you okay we're looking to grow we're looking we we need to we need to grow brand awareness we need to um we need to sell this many of this every month we need to um we want to hire this many more people every year but we can't do that with the the way that we have things right now um and then if you know that your solution can in fact do that which you you probably should because you researched whatever whatever they're looking for in the first place you wouldn't be entertaining a converse like I wouldn't be in a conversation with someone that needs a photographer right because I'm not a photographer and that's not part of I mean I will say that with a lot of the ads that we do for Brava and persona we have the option to supply a photographer to our clients and stuff you've done some of the photography for us which is great. But if you know like I said like if if you know that your solution can solve a likely problem that they have um then you just need to align with with what those specific needs are and figure out where where your solution can fit and um have the confidence to if it's not going to be the right fit or they're looking for something that you really don't have to say, you know what, that's I can maybe I can help you find someone that will or these are the questions you should be asking your next vendor that comes to you to try to solve this problem because you're gonna get hit up by a ton of people and um and then hope that the relationship is is is a great person to have in your network for the for the long term.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Yeah. Yeah so wrapping it up it really is know your know your audience, right? Know know who you're selling to know their problems and what solution you provide and be confident that it's move on. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Okay I think so I think I think I'm I might phrase it a pinch different by saying like the first things first is like knowing yourself and what you bring to the table and then knowing all of like all of that other stuff as far as your product your service your differentiators why you might be better or the right fit for someone versus someone else. But yeah those those those big things I think are are huge. And then if you again if you know yourself and you know you know your strengths and what and what you can bring it's really hard to um it's really hard to like let someone that didn't think you were the right fit like really impact you that much because you know that that you you can be the right fit for a lot of other a lot of other folks building blocks the biggest blocks building blocks the biggest mind blocks become building blocks I think that that's huge. Steph, write a book on it you you you should you shouldn't include some pictures because you're a great photographer.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

So do some pictures write the book yeah bring Jake Jake's her dog Jake's the best yeah he's laying here beside me jealous yeah um is there anything else you kind of want to add I mean I feel like we've touched on so many different little pieces and little nuggets of of great info today.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Yeah I mean I don't I don't think so I think um you know obviously shout out to Brava Persona Milwaukee Persona Medicine and Chicago style weddings magazines because that's one of the ways that we connected in the first place. And then I mean I have my own little podcast that just started called the Anna Angle that talks a little bit about um you know turning those roadblocks into building blocks and you know sometimes things can really change if you look at them from a different perspective. And I I mean I think that that feels feeds right into what some of the stuff that we're talking about as well stuff you're gonna be a guest at some point very soon. Cool. So yeah if you know I think that you know finding finding great people too to to look up to to network with to bounce ideas off of I think that that's one more little snippet of of of especially joy and learning I've found in the last especially the last couple years um of my life.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Yeah I do want to say too with Brava and I I know you're part of a couple other ones and persona for the Mad greater Madison area is that I've been able to be in persona twice now. And a really cool thing that's happened is if you are a business and you do have something in a magazine like Persona or Brava, AI is actually using that. Like it'll it's searching for things about you. So Steph Shanks photography if I type that in AI is going to give me an overview on Google and AI is actually finding those articles that have been written and using that as part of the description of me. So I get to be in charge of what AI is promoting by being in those magazines and sharing my story. So there is a lot of really good things other than just being in a magazine it's actually a lot longer term than that.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

I could not agree more and I'm so glad that you said that. And then the only other thing I'll say about it is it gives it specific to Persona magazine. So if you guys don't know what it is, it's a it's a once a year publication that's meant to be it's a it's a beautiful publication. It's meant to be kind of like a coffee table book but the really cool thing about persona specifically and this is where it's so exciting for me to bring it to Milwaukee this year for the first time is that it's not just an ad. It's it's allowing the owner or the CEO or whoever it is even whoever it is to tell the story of the business not just hey this is the phone number and the website to go to to look to research this business. And that to your point adds so much to any of your organic search results when when people are are looking for you especially with AI but it also allows you to control like telling your story without having to do all the work you let us tell your story. We can come and take the photos we'll come and if you don't if you don't you can write it if you want if if you have someone that you want to do that or if you want to do it yourself or we have a very simple questionnaire and we will write it in a very thoughtful way. And to me, because that's just like my jam is is storytelling is like I think that's such a huge piece of why I'm so passionate about all these publications is it's not just it's not just an ad. This is allowing people to tell their story and let people bond with their brand through storytelling instead of just a picture of of what their their truck could be wrapped in. Do you know what I mean? And that's I I just I find it so fun and and I'm so grateful to be in the position. I mean it was a huge change for me to to take a step away from two million dollar deals and you know work for these I don't want to call them local publications because they're they're large and we we do very well and it's we're very grateful for the brands here in Madison but um I took a chance and and I'm very grateful that I did.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Well Anna thank you so much for joining us today and listeners thank you so much for tuning in if you like this episode please tag a friend, like comment, share, subscribe and and thank you so much Anna for being here. Thank you so much Steph. Thanks you guys