Worthiness: Two Artists on Healing, Sobriety & Love

In this episode of Unwritten, Stephanie sits down with artist — and her partner — Oliver Kalkofen for an honest conversation about what it really takes to make a life out of art. They talk about growing up being told creativity would never pay, the trap of tying your self-worth to how much you earn, and the slow work of separating the two.

Oliver opens up about his darkest chapter, getting sober, and the moment he decided to come back and claim being an artist for good. Together they explore trading drug and alcohol highs for the "high" of raw life and nature, why hitting bottom can become a tool instead of a place to stay, and how two people who've both been to the bottom are now building something steady — as individuals choosing to share a life. A raw, tender talk about creativity, recovery, worth, and love.

Content note: this episode discusses substance abuse, mental health, and suicidal thoughts.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey, it's Stephanie. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Unwritten. I have Oliver Kalkofin here with me today. Say hello.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hello.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

How is your day so far?

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

So uh you're my boyfriend.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

I am.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

And you're probably like the third guy that I've ever had on my podcast. So my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Maybe force very, very, very lucky.

unknown 0:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

I do. And all those in everything you said, I feel very grateful and unlucky.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

So same. Something that we have in common is that we're both artists and we've both made a living from being an artist. And I don't know if it's the same for you, but for me, it wasn't something that I was told when I was young that I could be.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Yeah. Yeah. I I've always just been able to create and see artistically, I guess what you would call it. And like see pictures and things and always be able to like see how I could create from that and draw. And it was always a way to keep myself busy when I was a kid until I got older. I didn't realize that I could actually like make money doing it.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

And uh it took a lot, but we'll get there.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

What did you think that you were gonna be?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Um I'd like a Wall Street executive. That was like I I was like all about stock market and economics and where who pays for what and where all the money comes from, where all the money goes, and just kind of like how to become a part of that, because that seemed like the way to make money in America. Like in the 90s.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

It was a lot of it was a lot of push to be like an executive man and a businessman. So like I tried it for a while, but I'm an artist and I don't fit into any mold.

SPEAKER_05 1:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

So it was always trying to fit into a mold that was like structured and I always had failure in those structures because I knew that I always saw things differently.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

But wasn't allowed to even see those things differently. People always told you, Oh, silly kid, silly artist, silly mind, crazy imagination, too much. And then from there you just kind of keep getting shut down, down, down, or it takes a long time to find out that being an artist is what you're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Yeah. Did you have anybody that supported your drawings and stuff when you were a kid?

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Um, not really. My mom just thought it was really cool that I could draw.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

And then, like, as I got older, of course, and be started becoming somebody from it, then everybody started coming around again. And oh, you know, like you're so amazing, and I always knew it. And you're my artist and my friend and my son. And, you know, like my worth was based off of the fact that like other people had already known me for so long and I was making a career, you know, making a lot of money.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

I know for me, like my my grandma would always ask to see like my art book, my sketches. Oh, that's super yeah. So like when I was thinking about our conversation today, I was thinking about my grandma, and it it they weren't very good, but she was just like enamored that I could draw.

SPEAKER_04 3:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

You know, like and I just always took it for granted. It was just like what I did and it's who I was, but um, it's just you know, it's good to have those memories.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

I think I've lost it for a while. Like you lose it and and like uh you know, going back to like being enamored by like your art. Uh I think you get caught up in just like you take it for granted because it's what you do every single day. And then you don't fight you you lose that connection. And for me, that and for me, that connection came like again a couple years ago with my daughter, where like I was drawing a dog and she was like, draw me a German shepherd. So I was like, Okay, I'll draw you a German shepherd. And you know, it takes a couple minutes to start making it look like a German Shepherd. And her mind, I was a magician. In her mind, I created the most she just said, How did you do that from your head? And I just again I went, Oh my god, how lucky. And it just sparked a whole nother like drive for me to like push even more to become even better of an artist. And that all came from knowing your self-worth and not making it about money from like, you know, as a child, I was like, make money, make money, make money, make money. So then as an artist, you start making money, and it's everything about your art is based off of how much money you made, and that judges your self-worth.

SPEAKER_05 4:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

And then so then you get caught up in the sad part of being an artist because it's sad to just create and not have any self-worth. And your self-worth can't be money.

SPEAKER_05 4:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

It doesn't, it's not, it it just I've always thought it was. And then as you get older and you heal and you go to the therapy and you do all the work and you really embrace being an artist and embrace the love behind it. I think you and the passion that a child shows and that your grandmother showed in you are all the drives that probably were the things that helped you propel your career even more, which is what we need to do as artists. We need love and and and all those, all the things.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

All the things.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

All the things, compassion and and and and and encouragement comes to us, I think, from that. I don't get encouragement from people going like, oh my God, oh my god, yeah, yeah, oh my god, oh my god. I get encouragement from like seeing. There's a look, right? There's like a look that people have when they see something that like you did for them. That it's like a I don't really have a way of explaining it, but it's it's it's the gratitude and love. Being able to show somebody like I feel you. It's almost like they get seen through the work for me.

SPEAKER_05 5:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

I I feel like I connect more with the the person than I do with like the the the subject matter in our work.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Yeah. I mean, same.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Anyway, so it's inspiring.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

So you touched on something interesting. We started talking about self-worth, and that was kind of actually my next question for you. Um and I rem I remember that feeling too of like with photography, it's like I was doing it kind of behind the scenes just with my family and my kids and stuff, and then I started posting about it and people started giving me attention for it, you know, because now I was some now I had something to offer. To offer. And I really did get caught up in that. And then um, and that cycle kind of then you start comparing yourself to other photographers or people.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

The ego of the ego, yeah, takes over and you you're yeah, it's uh it's it's a tricky balance, I think.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

It's a weird place for us to be, I think. For we're more of like the in-betweeners to see the world like in between.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Yeah. Because I don't I don't need that anymore.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

And I don't I don't know when that changed. I think it was a process of I don't need anybody's approval to do what I want, but it is definitely starting out in an artist job or whatever you want to call it. It's uh it makes you a really deep person.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Yeah. But yeah, I've gone through like the deep part with like the self-help spiral where we're like searching and digging, and like, you know, you're you're constantly trying to find yourself, find myself, find myself. And like you realize that finding yourself has to do with like present work. If you don't do the present work necessary to find yourself, which we can get into a different time, obviously, but I think that's important too, like being an artist and finding yourself, yeah. Right, which is self-worth. Um, what uh are you happy? Right, is what you're doing. Cause I think it's important for artists to be happy with what you're doing.

SPEAKER_05 8:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Yes, we have our sad artists, and yes, we have our dark times, but like it's a I think it's as you get older, you strive more for beauty because you're starting to realize that like I am older and I am an accomplished artist. And instead of looking for money and looking for praise or any of those things, which comes with the job naturally, you're looking for answers or aha moments where you're just seeing the beauty and like the stroke of your art or the photography picture that you took, or the moment that you captured. That's just you know the moment in your mind that gives you the feeling. And when someone else validates that for you by also seeing the feeling in your artwork or in your stuff is more validating than getting money or anything like that. I think it's it's the validation that you created and being able to create and successfully create. And most of the time, uh, the work starts becoming about you.

SPEAKER_05 9:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

You we forget that like we're not creating, like, we're playing in the mud as kids. We're playing with paint. We are this the the feeling of expressing yourself in the art and is is the whole reason. I think that is where I'm at right now in my life. I'm like creating to see the beauty in it and to make it beautiful for other people to see. And and it's just it just comes all together, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

Yeah. I like that. I think it's true.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Yeah, it just all starts having meaning.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

So you start wanting to like do less of the non-meaningful stuff. You start going, oh, I'm an artist, like I'm striving for something else, right? You're hungry, and now I have passion to like move. And I think that's also a really big thing for someone like me is like I found a way to create money for myself. Oh, I found a way to make money, uh I'm getting paid for what I do. Oh, and then comes the part, how much do I charge? Right. And then, oh, and then everything starts going back to the validation of the finances again, where you're like, oh, I I'm too much, I'm not enough. I'm always but these are all things that we are constantly battling as artists, I think, as people too. Like but when you put art into it where like your necessity is if I don't create with my hands, if I don't do this, regardless of all of it, this is you have to really live the artist, I think. Like you you really have to be like, I'm an artist, but I'm not like I'm an artist, but like I'm not like you're not into the drugs and the and the that anymore. You're into like the beauty of life and how things feel and really trying to I don't that's how I am anyway. It's more of like of art and philosophy all correlated together now.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

I don't search for the help anymore and just searching for more inspiration.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Yeah. It is kind of cool. Like you brought up the no drugs thing, and like you and I are both like we don't drink alcohol.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

And I think it's made me a better artist. Where 10 years ago I'd been like, oh no, this is what artists do. We drink a lot, we oh yeah, do whatever. It's uh it's just a cool transformation. Like when you were saying we become the art or the art becomes us or whatever it is, like we are we are just like becoming the high comes from life instead of like and you when you were younger, you know, you were like, Yeah, right, high on life.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

What a what a joke. Like it can be high on life. Life is sad, life's depressing, life is well, I'm never gonna make it. It's all these things that were put into your mind by the negative thoughts from the people that like you grew up around that were not helping be supportive.

SPEAKER_05 11:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

And now that you found out how to support yourself, you're literally like, oh, I didn't need any of that talk. I don't need any of those people. I don't need to rely on my past to create. I am an artist. I am an influencer to the community now. Like now, now you're I'm 26 years. So now it's like if I if I can't tell myself that I'm an artist at 26 years, then I probably need to go back and like figure out a different career, maybe or something. Cause you know, 26 years, you you're done proving to everybody else. Yeah, you've done that and you no longer search for that. So I don't know. That's just kind of where I'm at.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Yeah. I mean, I actually had the same conversation with Shannon last week on the podcast. I've been doing this 20 years. Like, if I'm not good by now, like I I'm in the wrong.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Yeah, like I didn't, right? But like we, you know, yeah, we are good. That's the thing. And then but then you're like, but we have to explain to a world that doesn't see art. Some people don't see art, the value in it. They think because we can do it, we should just give it to you.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

And it's like, yes, as much as I would love to tattoo you or draw for you, or paint your surfboard, or do your building, or come to your house and paint your mural, or fly across the country. I also need to stick to my rules.

SPEAKER_05 13:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Because the rules and the boundaries that I created to be a structured artist is different than like the norm outlaw attitude of a tattoo artist where it's like, yeah, I'm gonna do cocaine and I'm gonna party and I'm gonna do all these things to be an artist because I'm dark and I need to be in that world. And it's like, no, the high is it sucks because like you wish you could go back in time and shake yourself and say, it's okay, like it's all gonna be okay. You just gotta like don't do so, don't do too, but you have to do all this stuff to get to the be here too, right? So it's it's very it's a conundrum of like, I like being an artist, I like seeing the dark side, I like the the the the experience, right? And I think that's where now it's life experiences versus drug experiences, alcohol experiences, because we all know that like the more you try to put out the flame by putting more booze or more drugs on it, like it doesn't, there's no way you're gonna dig your way out.

SPEAKER_05 14:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

But you have to come to the bottom, I think, too. Like you really got to see the bottom bottom. Like the no, like, oh, it's the bottom. Like, I'm so bad. Like my my frappuccino didn't get made today. No, like I want to, you know, you know, I want to be done. I don't want to think about what you people like what you know, and it's and you don't want to live that world because it's the victimizing yourself, and then you're back into the darker part. I think it's important to know it exists, it's important to experience it all. I think it's it's all part of the same trip. I mean, I don't know, what about you? Don't you feel like you I mean, like didn't art, the mind that you have, and the searching for validation and being creator, give you didn't you certain didn't you feel like you had to take that drug path?

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Yeah, I mean, I've I tried for a really long time to again going back to comparison, like I would like compare my life to other people's lives and like okay, uh, I'm you know, taking care of kids and trying to run a business, and and I always felt like below everybody else.

SPEAKER_05 15:13

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

And it really wasn't until I met you. Like, like, like the curve has gone so high. I mean, but I mean it's been going up, right? It's not like I was like low and now I'm high because I met you, but like through that from being low like that, like what's my fucking purpose in life? Like, I don't want to be here.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

So sad.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

You know, it's very sad.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

And it's hard because now you want to like sorry.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Yeah, and I wish I could have gone back and be like, no, like you're you're actually like amazing and and fantastic and great at what you do. Like just keep fucking doing it. And I did it, but I, you know, I did it at such a low level because I put everything else in front of me. I don't know why you're looking at me like that.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

But I'm listening to you and feeling what you're saying, and I just and I and I don't know. I just see it. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

Um, so I do apologize. So like saying that low for so long and like comparing myself, and then slowly, like after my divorce, like slowly like taking these steps up, right? Yeah, and then when you're so I was like middle.

SPEAKER_04 16:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

I was like middle, like I love myself, I love my life. And then, but I still didn't think like like fully expressing myself as an artist and and my voice and all this stuff until I met you. And now it's just like cool.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

God damn it.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

It's a matter too much appreciation.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

No, yeah, it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

In a good way though.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

I'd say when I met you, I just kind of felt like I mean, I was going through like a, you know, like a breakup. And again, like I went to the one spot, like I went out to nature, I went out to the woods with my kids, and uh, and it was like taking my son back out after you know we've had some family things happen where we weren't able to go out in the nature, and then we went back out, and that's when I met you, and I was like, man, that's crazy, like what crazy timing. But I had no idea that I'd be dating you or anything. I just was like, wow, what a great person! Like, that was really nice. I mean, like, you know, you tried to contact me a couple years ago to get a tattoo, and I literally didn't I didn't answer you at all. I went back when you messaged me for the first for the tattoo when I when I met you at at Pewitt's Nest, and I was like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

We would have been a hot mask. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

I would have so I was into like every self-help book known to man and woman, and I listened to, you know, I actually a lot of the guidance came back from like needing a mother, right? Like a figure, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

The validation, right? Oh, look what I did.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

A lot of that goes back to that too, right? The wanting to be seen. And then once you're seen, you become addicted to it because like like I like it, but it, but for me, it's more like that's what it was for like, you know, 15 years. And there's a lot of sacrifices, if we are gonna be honest, outside of just general, you know, we're just having a conversation, but I don't want to get off topic too much. My good.

SPEAKER_05 18:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Okay. So yeah, like substance abuse and self-help and worth and all these things. And then you're like, I'm uh I'm an emotional person. Like I feel like you're right, like I'm I feel empathy for everybody. Like you look in their face and you see it. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, then it's not, it's just not, you're just not, that's not for you, right? But when you see people for who they are and you start understanding that the self-help books that you read are good for you and all of that, but like it's not your job to run around telling other people that it worked for you and they gotta do this and they should try this because it's such a subjective experience to each individual that I think you either get to a point where the bottom has been met, and now you're either gonna like get the fuck up.

SPEAKER_05 19:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

And like, you know, and it got to me, I was at uh, I was in a, you know, I was in a mental hospital and I was in the room and I was sitting there and I was, and this is a really you know, it's kind of a dark place for me. This was my dark time. And that's when I was like, I'm a I'm an artist. Like I I I know what I can do. I gotta come back, right? I gotta, I I can't, I can't go. I can't let them. It's like letting them win, right? It's like letting all the voices and all the negative thoughts from your childhood and all of it. It's like you're on this level now where you just feel above it, right? You were talking about being below it, and maybe that's the it. It's the the negative talking and that's killing the art.

SPEAKER_05 20:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

And then you get into the I'm worthy without money.

SPEAKER_05 20:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

I'm worthy without a partner.

SPEAKER_05 20:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

I'm worthy without anybody, anybody at all accepting me. I I'm so much worthier than that because I don't I feel that in my whole heart since you were a child, right? Yeah. You feel that worth, but but now that you've found it, some people get really high on it and self-righteous and they feel the need to, and that's fine. Like spread the word, love each other and all of that in every way we can. But I just, you know, I got to the point where I didn't need it anymore. And when I met you, it was when I really gave up on it. I I really was like, I'm so over trying to be with anybody based off of anything anymore. Right. I'm worthy without another person.

unknown 21:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

I'm sick of people saying I'm codependent. I'm sick of feeling these feelings, right? And then you then that's when you really, I think I'm I'm at a point right now where I'm so in love with life, right?

SPEAKER_05 21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

That it's almost toxic, I'm sure. You know, like where you're just like, I don't know what to do because it feels so good and I'm not supposed to feel this. But you are. Yeah. And it makes it, it makes it like different. It's like, I don't want to drink. I almost don't even want to use anything like taking a gummy, going to sleep. I just want to like raw life as corny as it sounded when you were younger, is absolutely beautiful. Yeah. And and it makes you want to just geek out and create and take pictures and and that is, I think, what I'm attracted to now. That is and and you g bring that out in me like ways I can't even I'm not gonna get all like corny and stuff on, but You bring it out in me where I I see it and I feel accepted and I feel worthy without any of the things that I am, without me being your boyfriend, your artist. Just as a human being, I feel very worthy in front of you. And I feel very like seen and heard. And you made me like there's so much where like you're always like, oh, you're so healed, and you're so much more this, or you have emotional this, or whatever. And and whatever people say, it's like, no, I'm not. I still sit in the shower and meditate the tears away and cry in private and and all of the things that artists do. I just come out here and express myself as a positive energy because that's where the growth is. And that's where the love is. And that's it's just like it sounds, you know, I it's hard for me because old me is like, ha ha, yeah, right, man. Like, you know, I don't even listen to metal music anymore. I like it, I'm I'm so in love with the sound of voices and beautiful art and and and you anyways. And nature. And nature. Like 100% nature is the cause of all of my is like really grounding yourself. What about you though? Like what like what don't you how do you feel after being healed?

SPEAKER_02 23:15

I feel like you kind of just um I mean it's just it's funny just because our journey is so similar. Like I feel like last summer was when I well, like starting when I broke up with that last guy who was like just kind of a dick. And I I but like I realized when there was like a moment and I just realized, like, why am I putting up with this? This is like so stupid. I like this is my life. This is and I I feel trapped again. I feel all I'm starting to feel all these things. So I just like ended it, and then I felt really bad because then it's like, well, then I'm now I'm alone and I'm 40 something. And then it was just like I'm alone, you know, like it's like hey, alone, yeah, alone 48 hours, and I was just like, Yes, this is fucking awesome. And like I got I got my shit together. I had last year was like the best year financially. Like, I was just like working and hanging out with friends, hiking, all this stuff, and I was just like, this is fucking awesome. Like, this is life. And uh, same thing, I'm done with all the drama, you know? And uh, and then I met you.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

I think you just inspire me and we kind of just keep filling each other up back and forth where we're just like, let's get this thing going. Like, yeah, like let's let's see the the beauty in our lives and it and just love everything and and and be artists and finding somebody that really understands like how you like being loved and making it like equal back and forth and communicating, I think is has been like the absolute most beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Like being able to come to you and talk to you. But that's also comes from being like, right? You you you're empowered now.

SPEAKER_05 25:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Right? Like you're I'm empowered, you're empowered as an artist. I'm at a point where I'm like, I'm yeah, I'm a fucking artist. I'm good at what I do, I love it, to the point where, but I'm not the best, right? Yeah, and you're and it's humble, it's compassion and patience. Yeah, it's all the things you taught yourself. Because if you teach yourself these things, right, like pay patience, then you got into the world of patience. And then you slow down, and then you see that you see that there's worth in you.

SPEAKER_05 25:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

And also the universe sometimes throws some weird shit in there, but I don't know. Like I can't, you know, I have no consciousness and universe. We it's just sometimes it just puts two things together finally, and you're just like, yes, like yeah, it's awesome, right? So but it comes from being, you know, that you're you're not insecure anymore.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Like I've never been on a podcast, and I'm so nervous that I would be so but now it became so easy with you.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

And like and it's the truth, right? Like, uh you know, you I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Yeah. Um it's cool.

SPEAKER_04 26:34

Do you want to talk about aliens?

SPEAKER_05 26:35

I'm just kidding. Let's finish this one first.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

So the last question, and I'll preface it by saying, when I was young, I thought I would be a nurse or something like that. And so I always envision my life like a certain way. And it definitely wasn't this life. You know? Like it wasn't like all the things I've gotten to do and see and be and um so I'm just curious, like, what what was your vision of your life? And have you exceeded it?

SPEAKER_01 27:19

I envision my life to be like kind of how it actually is, which is kind of funny. You know, like at first you think, oh, I want to drive like Ferraris and I wanna oh I just want to live this life. And and like living life isn't like it's not money.

SPEAKER_05 27:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

And then you also start to realize that like the life that you wanted, like I think being content is the feeling that I get now as an adult.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Like I'm like, I'm there's no one above me. There's no there's no parents. There, you're the next. That's it. So, what example are you willing to set for the generation and for your children and for everybody as an adult, not as a I'm an artist at drinking and I'm having problems. You're not a you can't have a family and do that. And I know that because uh, you know, sacrifices have been made, and and those sacrifices were, you know, all of the things like going through the drugs, going through the divorce, going through the alcohol, the sad parent story, all of it, right? Yeah, the whole culmination gets to be like I didn't think I was gonna do anything, right? I thought I was gonna be like dead at 23, like I know, you know, like it was like, well, I was doing drugs and I just didn't care. And then once, you know, every time there's a little spark and you find your own worth and it's not coming from the outside, it's always the one that gets you from yourself.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Yeah. It's interesting that you talked about a feeling, and I've never really thought about it this way. Is that, you know, because we I'm a firm believer that we run on programs that were programmed into us as children, so until we like understand it, it just runs.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

And it's like breaking free.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

And I was just thinking that how you and I are creating our life. And as we like move in together and we start like doing life together, you and I have a very different level. We know what we want to feel in our relationship. So that's what we're working on. And like I think for growing up, we didn't have that.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

No, there's no stability in relationship.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

No, it was never like, oh, I want to I want to feel this way. So I'm gonna, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Growing up, I was always like, I don't want to feel like that. Like constantly. I was like, I don't care what it takes, right? Like, and it's like you pre-like, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

And I feel like with our lives, our parallel lives, like we know what we don't want to feel.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

And that's that's what's happening, I feel. Like we both know what it's like to be at the very bottom and and want to die.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

And like rather die.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Not feel any worse.

SPEAKER_02 30:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

You it's not even the worth. You don't even care. You don't want anyone to show you worth. It's literally to a point where you're like, yeah, I get it. We get it.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Yeah. The awareness of of knowing that's not what you want is almost better than way better than not having the awareness at all.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Yeah. It's definitely it's it's tricky. It's it's the emotional awareness and still grasping being an artist and still making money and being a a stable parent and an example for the future. You know, and inspire, right? Like it's yeah. We I want to inspire, but I don't want to inspire on like take me to TV and make me famous or make me. I just want to be me, and whatever the result of being me is, is literally what's happening.

SPEAKER_05 31:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

It's like full accountability, full honest, full just loving life, setting boundaries. It's but it all took the stacks of drama, like the, you know, the wanting to be dead, the not wanting, am I doing the wrong thing, right? It's it's really just a matter of do the work and stick to the stick to your program and and and really just believe in yourself, I think, is the only thing I've ever been doing.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

You know, you get a lot of inspiration, you get a lot of you know, relationships, you know, you get a lot of encouragement from some people sometimes. And that was all helpful, but like now it's like you said, we're alone. I like coming to the relationship alone.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

I'm alone as a person, but I'm together with you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

Right? Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

And we're building, you know, uh just we're trying to make the best future for ourselves. And I think it's it's kind of like we're both just kind of like embracing each other along the way. And it's something that I never had from like parents or anything. It was always just like there's a lot of self, a lot of bad self-talk, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

A lot of like, you're not gonna do this, you're not gonna do that. And we all got that. Like, you know, the parents, it was different then.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

They didn't know, they didn't realize what they're doing, and now we're facing that, right? We have to get through that as artists. And you've you're going through it, I've been going through it. And now we're here.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Right. And here is fucking awesome.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

As long as there stays out of here, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Like you gotta be able to use it as an artist.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Go there and use it, but don't go there and be there.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Right. Go there so it reminds you to not be there.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Yeah. Like use the tools that you built for yourself emotionally, for your emotional awareness.

SPEAKER_05 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

That's what's attractive about you, is the fact that I can sit here and have a conversation with you. And like I just said, like when we went camping, didn't have an argument about anything.

SPEAKER_05 32:59

Just be.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Just be, be. Like whatever you gotta do to be and not ruin anyone else's awesome time here, do that. And usually that's where I'm at right now. And the good things just keep happening.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Did you feel like you were um like were you trying to be like extra like cool on our camping trip, or were you just being you?

SPEAKER_01 33:23

No, I was just being me. I just let 100% just like you were awesome.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

You're like awesome to travel with and camp with.

SPEAKER_05 33:33

I like that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

Yeah, I think it's just interesting.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

It's just a result of all of the work.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

So you have to give it credit. Like even the bad people, the drama, the pain, the alcoholism, the drugs, the traveling to just absolute not knowing.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

Yeah. Yeah. I would never for anything want to go back to that feeling of what like I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_03 34:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

I will the fact that I know that I have whatever it takes. The power to the power to to get up the next day and like put my shoes on, like that's powerful.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

You know, I would never go back to the like the bad that that feeling again. So I we were talking about how we're both individuals.

SPEAKER_05 34:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

And that's like I think the best part about us is yeah, we're moving in together, but we're individuals that are choosing to like share together. Yeah, share a lot, like be witness to each other's lives. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

And and and it's so beautiful together. I mean, you're so kind and like you make it like you make it easy to to be kind too. Like, I don't ever feel like outrageously like, oh my god, hard. Like, I mean, you know, we had our moments. So it's like we're almost a year now.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

But yeah, I definitely I feel like you make it easy for me. I feel like we're both, it's it's very like, you know, it's always that story, right? Well, if I could go back in time and tell myself.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

But you can't. And you can't teach your kids. You can just you could exude the the the feelings, right? Yeah. And and the emotions are present around the children and people that grow up around you.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Yeah. And that's it.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

That's it.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

So uh thank you, Oliver, for being here. And audience, thank you so much for listening. If you like this episode, please subscribe, share it with your friends, or just listen next time.

SPEAKER_05 35:41

Thanks for having me.